Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:13-14)

Sunday, October 16, 2005

The Wonderful Cross

When I survey the wondrous cross
On which the Prince of Glory died
My richest gain I count but loss
And pour contempt on all my pride

See from His head His hands His feet
Sorrow and love flow mingled down
Did e'er such love and sorrow meet
Or thorns compose so rich a crown

Oh the wonderful cross
Oh the wonderful cross
Bids me come and die
And find that I may truly live

Oh the wonderful cross
Oh the wonderful cross
All who gather here
By grace draw near and bless your name

Were the whole realm of nature mine
That were and off'ring far too small
Love so amazing so divine
Demands my soul my life my all

Oh the wonderful cross
Oh the wonderful cross
Bids me come and die
And find that I may truly live

Oh the wonderful cross
Oh the wonderful cross
All who gather here
By grace draw near and bless your name


Blogger Andrew C. Bain said...

G'day Antonio

You can sing "O wondrous cross" with your mouth, but you don't believe it in your heart.

Why? Because you, Zane Hodges and Bob Wilkon believe that Christ died for everyone without exception. But John 6:39 says that God the Father wills everyone to be saved for whom Christ died. "And this is the will of the Father sending Me, that of all that He has given Me, I shall not lose any of it, but shall raise it up in the last day." (Jn6:39)
Thus, the Arminian (you, Antonio) believes in a god, where the "son" violates the will of his "father". The Arminian "son" was not able to save everyone the "father" wanted to be saved. According to the Arminian, there are people in hell, that "god" the "father" willed to be in heaven, but "god" the "son", could not save. What a pathetic "christ" (another christ) the Arminian worships, who violates the will of his "father".

Do Arminians believe in a Christ who can say, "I and my Father are one?" No. All Arminians are anti-Trinitarian; indeed, there is no unity in the Arminian "trinity" where the will of the "father" is violated by his "son". The God of the Bible, however, has a perfect unity of persons, where God the Father will draw all the elect, so that none for whom Christ died, will end up in hell (John6:37). In the Trinity of the Bible, there is no failure on the part of the Son to satisfy the will of His Father, (in fact, the wills of the Father and the Son are one and the same). Clearly, no Arminian believes in this Trinity, for everyone who believes in this Trinity, believes in a Christ who can say, "all that He has given Me, I shall not lose any" of them. All Arminians are rank Atheists, for they do not believe in the God of the Bible.

Andrew Bain
Sydney, Australia

October 22, 2005 9:28 AM  
Blogger centuri0n said...

Antonio: did you know that Chris Tomlin was reformed -- which is to say, a Calvinist?

He "hangs" with John Piper, and counts Piper as one of his spiritual mentors. You can't beat that.

October 25, 2005 6:29 PM  
Blogger Bobby Grow said...

Antonio did you attend Chafer Theological Seminary, in "OC"? I didn't attend there (Multnomah Biblical Seminary instead)--but I did meet with the president and the Finnish guy (I forget his name, he's a prof there, and is a graduate of DTS)--nice guys!

Their perspective there did seem a little cloistered, and "received"--much like the Master's Seminary--just from the opposite soteriological spectrum. I think you've made a bold move, i.e. standing against the "hyper-Calvinist tide" (although I don't know that I would say all of your commenters are hyper--but Calvinists for sure, except for me it looks like). Why don't you respond to them, and engage in a bit of Christian collegial debate (maybe you should avoid Andrew though ;).

Although I must admit, this debate gets rather old, but the title of your blog asks for it, almost :).

Anyway good day, and I look forward to seeing how you might engage the Calvinists visiting your site.

In Christ,
Bobby Grow

October 29, 2005 11:13 PM  
Anonymous alvin said...

In John 6:35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.” In this verse we see parallel words (comes,believes). How about if we were to use the word believe in the following verses and see what that would look like. John 6:36 All that the Father gives Me will believe in Me, and the one who believes in Me I will no means cast out. Lets do that again in verse 44 “No one can believe in Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” We can see by using the parallel word believe for the word come, that these verses are still true. Ok, we see in verse 47b There fore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me. We see here a person needs to hear before they can come or believe. So which comes first raising or hearing or drawing or (believing,coming)? A person needs to be drawn first to hear, then they believe or come and are raised. So it’s not the person who is drawn that is raised, but the person that is drawn and believes who is raised.
Does the Bible say anywhere that if a person is not elect they cannot be saved? No I don’t believe so. But we do see in 2 Thessalonians 2:10b because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
Here are some more interesting verses that Calvinist try to explain away: Jesus said in John 12:32 “And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”
John 1:29b Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Timothy 1:3,4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who will desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 4:10b who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 1 John 2:2 And He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. Romans 5:18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgement came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. And we know they will be justified if they believe: John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing. Acts 7:51 You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you. In Romans 9:15 God said: I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy. Who is it that God has mercy on? Romans 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.
And I end with this verse: Luke 2:10 Then the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid, for behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy which will be to all people. Wow! Why would it be great joy for all people if Christ only died for the elect? Jesus is the Savior of the whole world even if they don’t receive the love of the truth….alvin

December 23, 2005 7:24 PM  
Blogger Antonio said...

Hey Alvin,

Thank you for visiting my blog.

You have gone way back here to read my earlier ones!


Have a great holiday!


December 23, 2005 7:36 PM  
Anonymous alvin said...

Hey Antonio, that's ok I'm use'll a day late and a dollar short any way,,,LOL,,,I got a good Bible study out of it any way...Have A Great Christmas and New Year

December 24, 2005 12:47 AM  
Blogger Diane said...


Excellent post on election!!!
You ALWAYS help clarify for me.
Thank you so much!


January 18, 2008 11:29 AM  

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