My Deleted Comment from Pyromaniacs
My response to Dan Phillip's recent article on Pyromaniacs Terrorism in Church
Spurgeon wrote:
"Avowed atheists are not a tenth as dangerous as those preachers who scatter doubt and stab at faith" as quoted in the OP.
Ironically, it is apparant that the Reformed doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints with its corollaries temporary/spurious faith has scattered doubts and stabbed at the faith of many.
John MacArthur has stated in one of his radio programs:
"You may be a spiritual defector who hasn't defected yet!"
Perseverance theology has grounded assurance of salvation subjectively on self. This has, to a great extent, spawned debilitating doubts in the congregations where teachers proclaim this doctrine.
Calvin does not agree that assurance comes from introspection:
"But if we have been chosen in Him, we shall not find assurance of our election in ourselves... Christ, then is the mirror wherein we must, and without self-deception may, contemplate our own election." (Institutes III.xxiv.5)
He furthermore states:
"Doubtless, if we are to determine by our works in what way the Lord stands affected toward us, I admit that we cannot even get the length of a feeble conjecture: but since faith should accord with the free and simple promise, there is no room left for ambiguity" (Institutes III.ii.38)
Michael Horton, a Reformed writer and not a friend of Free Grace theology, nonetheless sees the potential for great doubt resident in the doctrine of some Reformed teachers:
“While MacArthur may not intend for readers to come away from his remarks prepared to conclude that they are not Christians because they find themselves committing the same sins repeatedly, I do not think this is an unwarranted conclusion based on his comments” (Horton, Christ the Lord, pg, 50).
Shortly thereafter he adds:
“MacArthur, as we have seen, not only takes the focus for our assurance off of the finished work of Christ, but even raises questions about the focus for faith itself. Is faith resting in Christ's life and death or in ours? We must be careful not to react to the antinomian threat by driving the sheep back to themselves, away from Christ” (Ibid, pg 51).
Antonio da Rosa
Spurgeon wrote:
"Avowed atheists are not a tenth as dangerous as those preachers who scatter doubt and stab at faith" as quoted in the OP.
Ironically, it is apparant that the Reformed doctrine of the Perseverance of the Saints with its corollaries temporary/spurious faith has scattered doubts and stabbed at the faith of many.
John MacArthur has stated in one of his radio programs:
"You may be a spiritual defector who hasn't defected yet!"
Perseverance theology has grounded assurance of salvation subjectively on self. This has, to a great extent, spawned debilitating doubts in the congregations where teachers proclaim this doctrine.
Calvin does not agree that assurance comes from introspection:
"But if we have been chosen in Him, we shall not find assurance of our election in ourselves... Christ, then is the mirror wherein we must, and without self-deception may, contemplate our own election." (Institutes III.xxiv.5)
He furthermore states:
"Doubtless, if we are to determine by our works in what way the Lord stands affected toward us, I admit that we cannot even get the length of a feeble conjecture: but since faith should accord with the free and simple promise, there is no room left for ambiguity" (Institutes III.ii.38)
Michael Horton, a Reformed writer and not a friend of Free Grace theology, nonetheless sees the potential for great doubt resident in the doctrine of some Reformed teachers:
“While MacArthur may not intend for readers to come away from his remarks prepared to conclude that they are not Christians because they find themselves committing the same sins repeatedly, I do not think this is an unwarranted conclusion based on his comments” (Horton, Christ the Lord, pg, 50).
Shortly thereafter he adds:
“MacArthur, as we have seen, not only takes the focus for our assurance off of the finished work of Christ, but even raises questions about the focus for faith itself. Is faith resting in Christ's life and death or in ours? We must be careful not to react to the antinomian threat by driving the sheep back to themselves, away from Christ” (Ibid, pg 51).
Antonio da Rosa
posted by Antonio at 7:33 PM
21 Comments:
I am curious. Was this what got deleted in the meta of Teampyro?
David,
yes.
Thank you for your visit.
Do you believe that this little comment got deleted?
I should have read the title of your post before asking that question.
It is a bit drawn as a comment to a blog entry, but I am still looking for "cheap-shot attacks" on Phil's pastor.
Any comment that throws bad light upon John MacArthur's teaching would be considered by Mr. Pyro as a "cheap-shot". He can dish it out, and say all kinds of offensive things about Zane Hodges, but at the end of the day, those things that hit too close to his home get deleted, censored, or discarded as not arising to the level of a dignified response.
Thing is that they do not have honest responses to the biblical theology of Free Grace. They weild the worn-out superficial interpretations of their cookie-cutter proof-texts, betraying their anti-intellectualism and affinity for preaching dissonance and contradiction marketed as Reformed theology.
I share your feelings, but let's not get too carried away with rhetoric here.
I am very familiar with the MacArthur brand of Christianity, having attended his church for several years. Started a series on my blog called "Coming to terms with fundamentalism," but it has stalled at this moment because I couldn't figure out a way to proceed without getting caught up in rhetoric.
Hey, I am up in Orange County!
Hey David, yeah, we aren't that far away from each other.
There is a great seminary up there called Chafer Theological Seminary. You can check them out at www.chafer.edu
Thanks again for visiting my blog.
God bless you!
I will come check out your blog
Antonio
Important point, Antonio.
This censoring by Reformed bloggers is really rotten.
I didn't know that comments were deleted like that at Pyromaniacs. Hmmm...
Well, thanks for posting that. It is interesting what Michael Horton says. I was sure that there would be some reformed people who would see the problem with LS, but you don't see them quoted a lot.
While MacArthur may not intend ...
I do believe that he does not intend it, but nonetheless, it is the obvious result for many people.
Your comment may have been a bit off topic from the original author's willed meaning of the post (a little bit of hermeneutics lingo there) but it doesn't read like a cheap shot at John MacArthur to me.
This is one more evidence of the phonemenon of people talking at, rather than with, each other in the blogosphere. We've all done it. We've all been guilty of it.
After having followed this thread I'm drafting a couple of posts. One is "how to teach grace theology" because the need is huge. (I came home from one session of our church's new members' class where I introduce them to grace theology. What a blast!). The other one is sort of a "rules of the road" for effective dialog in the blogosphere.
Do any of you have any thoughts about either subject?
In some circles, anything less than total adoration of their big time Bible teachers is deemed a cheap shot.
Hey Bud,
How come I can't post comments on Free Grace Network?
It wont let me type in the comment field!
I agree that Calvinist teaching leads a person to an unhealty introspection; and thus presents a false articulation of salvation.
Dear Bro. Antonio,
I am very sorry to have just read the comments section at TeamPyro. One would think that they would be able to raise to the challange that you presented to them. I am very sorry to see that they did not. I would like to also note that the tone you took over there, when compared to Mr. Johnson's, fully demonstrated his remarks to you to be rather ... childish.
Keep up the good work, and God bless, my dear brother.
Robbie
Hey ya all,
thanks a ton.
Good to hear from you Robbie!
Antonio -
Thanks for the Chafer shout out - they are awesome. If I were a Masters Seminarian - I'd be a complete wreck. I thank God every day for His unconditional love through Christ. I'm thankful for you brother. Another great post.
Antonio,
Did you get my email about posting to the fgn weblog?
Hey bud, I did. thanks. Alot going on right now in my life. Tons. I need prayer.
Thanks
Antonio,
I decided to delete my last two coments. I went back and read Phil's response to you. I think it is unfair for some of you all to call him childish. Remember it is his blog as this is yours and you have deleted my coments in the past but I really never said anything as this is your blog.
Even though you disagree with Phil consider this quote:
"Likewise, if an organization has a Calvinistic statement of faith (such as the New Hampshire Confession, which places regeneration logically prior to faith in the ordo salutis), then an Arminian should not join it. An anti‐Calvinist who joins such a fellowship has no moral right to expect to be left alone. He is being dishonest and subversive."
Dr Bauder
Consider that this thought can be applicable in your endeavor.
As I said before you are right to challenge some of their veiws perhaps when the venue is opened to you as centurion did Jodie last year, but to invade their space off topic and attack I think is not reflective of a Christlike Spirit. but I hope you would consider indeed being respective of what Dr Bauder was relating in this quote.
I think last summer Jodie reflected a Christlike Spirit and made her case well on the James debate. I have learned from her. Consider this brother. You and I are very alike in areas even though we don't always see eye to eye.
>>> I think it is unfair for some of you all to call him childish.<<<
I would have to disagree with you. I would also like to point out that I did not call him childish. "Childish" is how I described his remarks.
Of course, that is his blog, just as this blog belongs to Antonio. Both moderate their blog as they see fit. That is, they may certainly do on their blog what they like.
However, Antonio was dead on target and clearly within the topic. Many in the Reformed community very well know of the problems in MacArthur's theology. In bringing this to the table, Antonio was clearly demonstrating the very thesis of the topic. Mr. Johnson then attacked Antonio, and his reasons for deleting the post had all the serious quality of a child pouting and saying, "My daddy is better than your daddy..." That is why Mr. Johnson's remarks were childish. He did not want to engage the topic in the way that Antonio brought it to him.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
I think Bhedr's comment is on target. My comments are routinely censored on various Lutheran blogs, I can't even post on the Free Grace Network (and they complain Calvinist's don't listen). I've only brought this up here because I don't think it's a big deal. That is because blogs are owned by the people who write them. I accept the rules and live by it. If I think they are unfair, I'll comment in my own way in my blog or elsewhere knowing that often the original people and audience will never read or even be concious of them. God's kingdom will advance whether or not I can get my comments on a partciular blog.
Antonio, you are doing a exceptional job in getting your viewpoint across in the blogging world. If people want an alternative to McArthur, they'll find you.
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