Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:13-14)

Tuesday, April 14, 2009

Faith Again Revisited

The following is a comment I made on Rose's Reasonings.

Trust and believe are synonyms. Trust denotes belief in a certain proposition having to do with the reliability of a thing or person. It is not some element beyond belief. For instance, if I were to say that I trust the babysitter I could equally state it in this propositional form:

I believe that the babysitter is qualified and reliable to take care of my children.

When we speak of trust, there may be some form of emotional element attached to it, but that is a secondary matter that comes by way of the results, not being part and parcel with the action of faith.

First off, we must realize that believing the facts concerning Christ's passion, Person, and resurrection is not salvific! It is when one believes in Jesus that he has eternal life. But what does it mean to believe in Jesus? I guess we could say that believing in Jesus is trust in Him. But in every realm where trust is mentioned, there is a context. I don't trust the babysitter to do my taxes nor do I trust the airline pilot to make a medical diagnosis.

I trust the babysitter for the well-being of my children on my night out.

I trust the pilot for my well-being during travel.

Every belief or trust can be denoted by propositional language, and apart from belief in a proposition, faith/trust does not occur. Each instance of faith/trust can be expressed in propositional form. Here are some sets illustrating my point:

A) I trust in the airline pilot.
A) I believe that the airline pilot is able and qualified to properly fly this aircraft and to get me to my destination safely.

B) I trust in the babysitter.
B) I believe that the babysitter is able and qualified to care for my children and keep them safe when I am out for the evening.

C) I trust in Jesus (or equally, I believe in Jesus)
C) I believe what Jesus has promised He is able, willing, authorized, qualified, and desirous to perform.

The gospel message states that anyone who believes in Jesus has eternal life. The moment that one believes in Jesus (as in C above) he has everlasting life. Therefore, one knows if he has placed his reliance or trust in Jesus (in the sense of believing that Jesus is able, authoratative, qualified, reliable, desirous, etc.. to perform what He promised); and because he:

1) Knows he believed in Jesus
2) Jesus promises eternal life to the one who believes in Him


3) He knows he has everlasting life.

There is no "personal" act of trust beyond an act of faith. This is nonsense and unbiblical. There can be no case made to state that saving faith is a combination of belief + trust. Reliance is not an emotion and ethereal object. Reliance is faith in propositional truth.

For instance, Let's say I have an infant who has never been babysat before: after several weeks of going through interviews and reading resumes and calling references, a single babysitter shines above the rest. Her credentials are impeccable, her experience is broad, her references all check out, etc... This convinced me that she is reliable. I now believe in that babysitter. But again, what do I mean about that? Let us break it down again.

Based upon the persuading evidence of her credentials, experience, references, etc., I now believe that this babysitter is able and qualified to care for my children! Faith (or belief or trust) in the babysitter was the passive result of becoming convinced/persuaded as to the reliability of the babysitter.

But something happens the moment I am convinced/persuaded of that proposition:

1) I feel relief!
2) This babysitter has impressed me and I can act upon my new found confidence and hire her
3) A relationship initiates which makes the act of trust (which is the passive result of becoming persuaded as to the reliability of the babysitter) seem to have a "personal" element to it, but in reality it is just a resultant effect.

But we must not confuse the act of trust/belief/faith (they are all synonyms!!) with the "feelings", emotions, subjective mindsets, and commitments that may result from the act of reliance upon another. When we do so we not only err, but we destroy objective assurance as well. How are we to determine how to guage this "personal" response to see if we have adequately met this extra step for salvation?

Really, this kind of theology is based upon a pop-psychology and not on logic and the bible. If you all have never read Gordon Clark's wonderful book "Faith and Saving Faith" you ought to give it a read to save yourselves from this kind of ethereality when discussing faith!

Notice this statement of Scripture:

Rom 4:20-22
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."

What is the "therefore" therefore in verse 22?

Because Abraham was fully convinced that what God had promised He was also able to perform, it was reckoned to him as righteousness!

Abraham was eternally saved because he was fully persuaded/convinced that what God promised He was able to perform.

Can you get this?

This is propositional material. This is the description of trust/faith/belief in God in propositional language. This is an act of reliance stated in propositional form. Abraham considered God able, reliable, authorized, desirous, and willing to perform His promise, therefore it was accounted unto him as righteousness.

Jesus says,

"Whoever believes in Me has everlasting life"

This is the promise of Jesus!

When I believe that what Jesus has promised He is able to perform, the result is that I have everlasting life! Receiving everlasting life is a result of placing one's reliance upon Jesus. But again, I must drive home this point. How is that done!? It is by becoming fully persuaded/convinced of the reliablity of Jesus Christ. And again, this can be denoted in propositional language:

I believe that what Jesus promises He is able to perform, therefore as a result I have eternal life.

Lets not make it any more difficult than it really is.

The gospel message is to be preached far and wide so that it may increasingly invite men and women to believe in Jesus for eternal life. The Holy Spirit uses the Word of God through the instrument of the evangelist to persuade and convince the lost to believe in Jesus for eternal life.

Let us not balk at this, belief is the passive result of being persuaded, and this notion is biblical.

Acts 28:23-24

23 So when they had appointed him a day, many came to him at his lodging, to whom he explained and solemnly testified of the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus from both the Law of Moses and the Prophets, from morning till evening. 24 And some were persuaded by the things which were spoken, and some disbelieved.


Blogger Diane said...

Great post Antonio!!!

I hope all your visitors will take time to digest what you are saying. I especially appreciate the scripture that you give. That's really where it's at!!!
Your illustrations help us to put things together.

Sometimes we bloggers are here just to make our point without taking the time to consider what one another is saying. I want you to know that I'm here to listen, pray for understanding, think, digest, and learn what God wants to teach me. He has used you in my life. Thank you for your perseverance even under difficult circumstances at times.

I thank God for you, my friend.


April 14, 2009 9:36 PM  
Blogger alvin said...

(: Good Morning Antonio :)

As Bob B. would say 'its clear to me, I mean its right there. Really'

alvin :)

April 15, 2009 6:31 AM  
Blogger Steve Dehner said...

Another home run, Antonio!


April 15, 2009 8:50 AM  
Blogger goe said...

Thanks Antonio. I knew you would come through when we needed you.

April 15, 2009 4:29 PM  
Blogger David Wyatt said...

Have y'all seen the (old now) book review at the GES site of Gordon Clark's "Faith & Saving Faith" by Gary Nebeker? In my opinion it is superb. Very helpful. Balanced & biblical as I see it. Also simple for simpletons like me.

April 16, 2009 10:04 AM  
Blogger alvin said...

Hi Antonio

This is something I posted over at Gary's blog. It's about "the women at the well" and Jesus useing ambiguity as a teaching tool and the word "believe":)

Hey Gary, your memory is pretty good for a ole’ timer :)

Yes what Jesus said in verse 10 was ambiguous. Zane said that Jesus through out the Gospel of John used ambiguity (can have more than one meaning) as a teaching tool. We see this with Nicodemus about being born again, taken as physical birth. Or Jesus speaking about destroying this temple taken as the physical temple, or eating Jesus flesh and drinking His blood as literal rather then spiritual. Or Lazuus sleeping taken as
physical sleep,or here the women at the well taking it as physical water, and many more. Jesus used ambiguity as a teaching tool for the women at the well, she would later remember that Jesus had told her if she had already known these things the giving and receiving would have already taken place. This just confirms here that Jesus was talking about a gift that can be taken freely just as Rev 22:17 confirms. It had NOTHING to do with her sin or surrendering anything but the simple appropriation of a gift :)
It’s amazing that LS or some FG people can believe that “total surrender must take place” to receive a GIFT…simply amazing.

Another amazing thing the confusion on the word "believe." When Jesus gave the women at the well the knowledge of His person that He was the Christ, when this truth is received by faith it springs up into eternal life.

It's spontaneous folks like when my wife brings goodies to the neighbor kids when they see the goodies they believe my wife has brought them a gift. They don't have to think . . . . now do I trust her?????

alvin :)

April 16, 2009 5:34 PM  
Blogger Celestial Fundie said...

"How many times can a man shake his head and pretend that he just doesen't see?" Bob Dylan

Or a lady?

April 17, 2009 9:33 AM  
Blogger goe said...

I hear you Matthew. Dylan has nice way with words doesn't he?

April 19, 2009 11:47 AM  
Blogger alvin said...

Hey Bad, what you be up too :)

I like purdy words :) It's them folk who make the Word fit their testimony that I be have'n fits with :)
They be think'n Jesus pour the living water down thar throats an make'm believe against thar will, they mess everyone and themselves up :)

Ugly :~)

April 19, 2009 8:52 PM  
Blogger goe said...

Hey Ugly...I be likin Dylan!!

April 21, 2009 4:54 AM  
Blogger goe said...


How can someone as Ugly as you be liken purdy words??


April 21, 2009 5:00 AM  
Blogger alvin said...

Hey Bad

You be ask'n to hard of questions . . .it make my head hurt . . . . all I be know'n is them purdy words feel real good when they roll off my tongue . . . .heeheeeee

Ugly done left in a trail of dust :~}

April 23, 2009 8:33 PM  
Blogger alvin said...

Hi All :)

I thought Antonio, Gary and Diane did a wonderful job of defending the truth on Fred Lybrand's site. And I was also delighted in Lou Mo Nyet who was a ex-Buddist. All his post were EXCELLENT here is just one which gets right to the point:
Because our Lord Jesus Christ PAID all of our sins and the sins of the whole world (1Jn2:2), then the SINGULAR CONDITION of being saved is gloriously REDUCED to DOING NOTHING, even reduced to NON MERITORIOUS believe which is NOT inhale anything, just a simple PASSIVE exhale MERE BELIEVE on the Lord Jesus Christ. I am proud of this 'EASY BELIEVISM reduction' of believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and INSTANTLY saved--simply because HE PAID IT ALL.

I think you are confused. A growing knowledge of Christology or a full-fledged Christology is NOT a condition of salvation. The apostles were saved even BEFORE they know of the resurrection of our Lord. To the Philippian jailer, Paul presents the singular VERB condition of salvation: "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ!" as ONLY condition of salvation(Acts 16:31). You are confused here brother.

The presentation of the Gospel by our Lord in Jn3 emphasized simple look=believe and NOT of a NOUN or knowledge of resurrection--it does NOT include the resurrection as you erroneously assumed.

The unbeliever who believed on the Lord WHO paid his/her sins on the Cross is gloriously saved instantly, even if he/she does NOT even know about the resurrection (resurrection IS NOT AN ISSUE). Even SIN is NOT an issue. My point is salvation is faith alone in Christ alone. Period. It is a VERB. The ONLY noun is CHRIST alone. BELIEVE in Christ is the issue. Period. To add anything such as JBHixon's presentation is NOT what the simple presentation of the Gospel is.

Dave, I know some Christology and I know some exegesis, but the good news of the Gospel does NOT required an unbeliever to know a full expository delineation of Jn3. A Gentile unbeliever does not know Jn3 Serpent as Nicodemus did. I think you are confused about salvation believe and post salvation growing Christology.

April 24, 2009 12:35 PM  
Blogger Sanctification said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

April 24, 2009 10:45 PM  
Blogger goe said...

Hey Antonio,

Thanks for posting that cartoon. I be liken Bullwinkle!
I loved all your comments at Fred's. I benefited a lot from reading them. Don't get discouraged...you did great.

Gary (goe)

April 25, 2009 8:55 AM  
Blogger Sanctification said...


Just wanted to say, seeing your life pattern Christ is overwhelming; you are a Godly man.


April 25, 2009 9:05 AM  
Blogger Sanctification said...


Bucktooth was here:F

April 25, 2009 9:06 AM  
Blogger goe said...

You too Alvin...but how come you be talkin all sophisticative o'er at Fred's place? Who you think you be foolin with all that smooth talkin theologizen?

April 25, 2009 9:07 AM  
Blogger goe said...

hey ther (:F bucktooth ):F ! I ben lookin fer ya!

April 25, 2009 9:10 AM  
Blogger goe said...

I mean> :~F Bucktooth :~F I like that comment...thanks.

April 25, 2009 9:20 AM  
Blogger alvin said...

Hey thar Bad :)

Yep I was all slikered up had my go to meet'n clothes on, even put a tie on ole' ruth . . . .that be my mule . . . . but when they start even talk'n down too ruth it be time to hit the dusty trail . . . an dat be just what i do . .heeheeeee

I be lik'n the buzzards better . . .at least they wait till yah die to pick yur bones . . .i be see'n yah on the trails . . . we be sittin around the campfire again drinking coffee an shoot'n the breeze :)

Ugly been here an left in a trail of dust . . heeheeeee :~}

April 25, 2009 10:29 AM  
Blogger Antonio said...

Lou Martuneac,

You are not welcome here to post. I ask that you cease any and all correspondence with me here, or on any other blog, or through email. I promise to do the very same.

Antonio da Rosa

April 25, 2009 12:26 PM  
Blogger Sanctification said...

Hey Bad- I'll be seein' ya "on the other side"


April 25, 2009 1:28 PM  
Blogger alvin said...

For my good buddy "Bad"


Ugly:~} an Ruth :~}

April 25, 2009 2:20 PM  
Blogger goe said...

Yeah Ugly, them Gaither boys are five pipes that be in sweet harmony. I'll be seein you and Bucktooth:F on the other side.

Bad be gone in a cloud a dust into tha rainbow:-}
I say gitty -up!>>>>>>

April 25, 2009 5:21 PM  
Blogger Lou Martuneac said...


Do you think you are in a position to make demands of me? You want to play the man with me in front of your friends; don’t you? You are sorely confused and mistaken if you think you can make any demands of me!

What you wrote to me is insulting and a flagrant disregard for the single condition I gave you to reinstate the mutual ban, which you broke.

I am going to repeat to you what you MUST DO to reinstate the ban you violated. Then I’ll follow with a reaction to your absurd demand that I do not communicate with you in the blogs.

Finally, for your readers who may not know what the history is, a brief commentary.

The CONDITION FOR MUTUAL BAN REINSTATEMENT:The ONLY way (which you are well aware of) for the mutual ban to be reinstated is by your public UNQUALIFIED PROMISE to NEVER again post or attempt to post at my blog. That is all I have asked you for.

No qualifications, no excuses, no counter demands of any kind.

What you posted today, in your macho attitude, has only hardened my resolve to bring you to account for your numerous violations at my blog.

And DON’T MISS this:

I am giving you 24hrs to post that UNQUALIFIED PROMISE. If you fail to post that Promise, or post a promise with any qualification or demand on me of ANY kind, I will proceed as though the mutual ban is permanently dissolved and can never be stored.

As of Monday morning I will not accept any promise, even a genuine, unqualified promise from you to never attempt a post at my blog.

You have 24hours to swallow your pride and make that UNQUALIFIED PROMISE. You better have some one e-mail me to tell and link me to where your promise is because I’m NOT going to be looking for it myself.

That’s it! Do what I told you or be prepared to host my comments and critique at your blog- FOREVER!


April 25, 2009 9:31 PM  
Blogger Lou Martuneac said...

HISTORY: For the benefit of any who may not know the history…In Sept. 2007 you came to my blog to publicly rumor that Brother Shea is a child molester.

In addition there was your unethical stint as the Sock Puppet: fg me which you lied about for 10 months.

In recent months you repeatedly violated the mutual ban (that I was honoring with) various unwanted and vitriolic personal attacks.

I finally had enough of your violating the mutual ban. I informed you that as far as I was concerned the mutual ban had been dissolved and I would begin posting at your ReDefined FG Theology blog and Unashamed of Grace at will, 24/7 on any topic of my choosing.

I also informed you that the ONLY way the mutual ban could be reinstated would be by your public UNQUALIFIED PROMISE to NEVER again post or attempt to post at my blog.


April 25, 2009 9:35 PM  
Blogger Lou Martuneac said...

BLOG Communications:
Furthermore, and finally I am making it VERY, VERY clear to you that I will NEVER , and I mean NEVER agree to cease from engaging you at any blog (outside your own) any time, anywhere on any subject. I am not going give you any opportunity at all to deceive and ruin even one more unsuspecting person.

Wherever you go outside your own Crossless heresy blogs I will be there to expose your GES Crossless heresy by posting your extremist statements. I will expose, with proof of, your unethical, criminal and heinous behavioral track record. I am going to do all that I can to see to it that you never have any breathing room to spread the GES reductionist heresy.

I will do all I can to make sure no one falls under the influence of your dangerous GES heresy and destructive behavioral patterns.


April 25, 2009 9:37 PM  
Blogger Lou Martuneac said...

To All:

Before I told Antonio I need his public UNQUALIFIED promise to never post at my blog again, I gave him an opportunity to settle the issue privately. He refused.

All I have asked him for is his promise to stay off my blog. I did not even ask him to apologize.

He started this problem with his relentless attempts to post at my blog, while the mutual ban was in place. I have been giving him a chance to bring closure.

Furthermore, Rose told me that she advised Antonio to refuse to promise me he'll stay off my blog. I informed Rose that she was foolish to do that.

His conditional promise is totally unacceptable and he knew it before he posted it yesterday.


April 26, 2009 5:21 AM  
Blogger Pilgrim said...

Inclusion or Exclusion
Some people have an Idea that God is inclusive for mans eternal destiny, that all religions and all people will be saved. That God will allow all of mankind to enter into heaven because everybody is good so God must be fair and include everyone! It is true God does love the whole world but God is exclusive about mans eternal destiny without the Savior. To keep this simple man has a problem called sin in which man refuses to believe that there are eternal consequences for having sin, which is a one way ticket to hell. God is holy and he will not allow anyone with sin to enter into heaven. God is hurt and angry about our sin, we have broken his laws. But God is just and good and he knows our need so he provided a solution to our problem. His solution to our problem is to have our sins removed by having our sins placed on someone else, a sacrifice for us; paying for the penalty of the sin we have in our lives. So that someone else would get the penalty of Gods wrath and separation on him that was meant for us. So God sent his son Jesus on a mission from heaven to earth as our sacrifice to die on the cross on our behalf after this happened three days later Jesus came back from the dead, alive. But that’s not all remember I wrote that God is exclusive about mans eternal destiny without the Savior? The only way that Gods promise can be applied to your life is for you to turn from your way of thinking and know that your sin offends and hurts God and call on the Lord Jesus who’s alive to save you. Your sins are then transferred to Jesus for what he did at the cross, dying and being abandon by God because of your sins, for you and because Jesus arose from the dead he is alive you can now enter into a relationship with God. Will you call out to Jesus to save you? It’s your choice to enter in exclusively with God’s grace for you. Where will you want to spend eternity after hearing Gods promise for you?
If the answer was yes that you do want Jesus as your sin bearer, Savior, and you do believe God raised Jesus from the dead you can pray with your voice.

“Dear Lord Jesus save me.”

Acts 20:21 Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance towards God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.


May 30, 2009 7:43 PM  
Blogger lightninboy said...

Antonio has got this wrong, don’t you think?

Abraham wasn’t justified by believing that God was able to perform what He promised; Abraham was justified by believing he possessed what was offered to him.

A person isn’t saved by believing that Jesus is able to deliver everlasting life; a person is saved by believing he possesses the everlasting life that is offered to him.

June 26, 2009 7:10 PM  
Blogger GOD'SACRE said...

Lightnin Boy;
Antonio wrote:
///Rom 4:20-22
20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore "it was accounted to him for righteousness."

What is the "therefore" therefore in verse 22?
Because Abraham was fully convinced that what God had promised He was also able to perform, it was reckoned to him as righteousness!
Abraham was eternally saved because he was fully persuaded/convinced that what God promised He was able to perform.
Can you get this?

This is propositional material. This is the description of trust/faith/belief in God in propositional language. This is an act of reliance stated in propositional form. Abraham considered God able, reliable, authorized, desirous, and willing to perform His promise, therefore it was accounted unto him as righteousness."

Jesus says,

"Whoever believes in Me has everlasting life"\\\\\\\\\\\\\

Now where does it say there that Abraham believed God for eternal life? Maybe he did, maybe not.
Does Jesus say ...that whosoever believeth in me for eternal life that he can never lose? Of course we now know that eternal life is ours from the moment of our belief in Jesus Messiah. We now know that eternal life is eternal and present. But I didn't know this when I received the gift of God. Even Free Grace has to descend into a web of complications. "BELIEVE WITH OUT A DOUBT THAT JESUS FREELY GIVES YOU ETERNAL LIFE FOREVER THAT YOU POSSESS FROM THE MOMENT OF BELIEF THAT YOU CAN NEVER EVER EVER LOSE EVEN IF YOU REJECT THAT BELIEF THE NEXT INSTANT FOREVER ....."
I am a simpleton. At the moment of salvation, I was Peter screaming from the waves "JESUS SAVE ME!"
I was the desperate father crying with tears "Lord I believe! Help thou my unbelief!"
I was the thief on the cross pleading "Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom" It was not the prayer, but the desparate helpless trust. Lord if you don't do this, I'm lost. I believe in you.

July 30, 2009 9:46 PM  
Blogger lightninboy said...

Duane, you can call out for Jesus to save you and you can believe Jesus is capable of saving you, but if you never actually believe you are saved, you never have saving faith.

July 31, 2009 7:43 PM  
Blogger Pilgrim said...

What you have said is true. But it boils down to the operation by the Spirit of God. A lot of people make the intellectual decision but not by the Spirit of God. God wants to know us not that we know God first. God does the revealing by the gospel. Its not WE ARE GOD and we do the revealing.

August 01, 2009 5:49 AM  
Blogger GOD'SACRE said...

I agree that it is of paramount importance that we get the message right. First, because it is the Truth. Second, because (By way of example) I have always known that I was incapable of keeping any condition to earn God's acceptance.
Any message of committment, or repentance etc. just left me lost. The message of belief: now that's a message I can respond to.
It's when people really start parsing words, and then making those parsements conditions for salvation. I believe there are millions out there who now and probably always will speak in the ls tongue. But somewhere along the road they simply understood that if Jesus didn't save them, they were lost. As a result, they trusted Him and Him alone.
*Mentally retarded people believe in Jesus! They don't grasp the nuances and parsings. They know that they once were lost but now are found. The same with some four year olds.
Getting the MESSAGE right is paramount because we want to invite as many people in as possible with a clear, concise message. The danger of phariseeism is when we begin thinking that if they don't get the concept exactly as we spell it out (e.g. "crossless salvation"vis a vis believe in the substitutionary death)then they aren't saved. Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness.
there you go again! A person can not believe unless the Spirit of God draws him. "An Intellectual decision" to believe in Christ can not take place without the Spirit of God.


PS I've been craving a place to bounce our common faith off of my brethren and sistern ;) thanks for the opportunity!
*If this is a partial repeat post I apologize in advance, My new goggle account is not cooperating.

August 01, 2009 9:20 AM  
Blogger GOD'SACRE said...

O.k. just one more point: (Or two)
the thief on the cross plead "Jesus remember me, when you come into your kingdom".
Did Jesus cause him to believe by telling him "I tell you today that you will be with me in paradise"? or did Jesus recognise the thief's belief in HIM and account it unto him as righteousness, and then Jesus gave him the GIFT of assurance? I believe that assurance is a gift. When I first believed, I was full of doubt. Sure my flesh has been crucified with Christ, but doubt is a sin. Who stopped sinning the moment they believed? This may shock you, you may doubt my salvation, but to this day I question my belief, and whether free grace is true. Then I tell myself that if my salvation depends on anything other than Jesus then I am lost. Then I thank Jesus that He is who He is, still fearing and go on with my day. Pray for me!
Surely narrow is the gate to enter in. But I believe that believingortrusting in Jesus is that gate.

August 01, 2009 10:12 AM  
Blogger Pilgrim said...

The clearest picture for salvation is by far the thief on the cross. God Spirit moved upon him and he jumped on it in hope of everlasting life through Jesus his, our, Lord!


August 01, 2009 11:34 AM  
Blogger Pilgrim said...

Not in the wisdom of man but in the power of God!

Guess who wrote that?

August 01, 2009 11:34 AM  
Blogger Pilgrim said...

Dear Godsacre,
Yes were in agreement. Even a horse is drawn to the water by salt, and prayer!!!

August 01, 2009 11:38 AM  
Blogger Larry said...

Recently another author (Piper) has come forward that believing in Christ cannot be a standalone concept, but one must believe in Christ for something.

Piper takes this in a very different direction than the idea put forward in this post, to believe in Christ for eternal life. (Antonio, 8:40 pm, 4/14/2009). I don't like it, and I don't think you'll like it either. It comes from pp. 129-130 of his book "God is the Gospel."

Before I directly quote it I must confess that I've not seen words put into the mouth of Jesus so blatantly in order to support a private interpretation of faith.

"What does it mean to trust a person who says, 'whoever believes in me shall never thirst (John 6:35)? Or to put it differently, what does it mean to trust a person who says, 'My beauty and my glory are your soul's deepest satisfaction'? It means that trust must taste and embrace that satisfaction." (God is the Gospel, pp. 129-130).

I think there is a resolution here. When a child trusts a parent, it is not capable of enumerating all the things it trusts the parent for.

Similarly, Abraham was deliberately challenged, that he could not count all the stars, so the concept of having to know exactly what we're trusting God for, in order to trust Him at all, I think is faulty. Does this make sense? Only God knows the fullness of the righteousness He reckoned or credited to Abraham. Abraham was not left to having to be stuck saying "redemption, reconciliation, justification, glorification, propitiation, substitution, ..., ...." God knows the fullness of the blessings He gives to those who trust Him.

If it is up to us, we might get it wrong. Piper, for example, gets it wrong, wanting to say we trust God for a sense of satisfaction !!

September 14, 2009 9:51 PM  
Blogger Michael said...


1038 The resurrection of all the dead, "of both the just and the unjust,"621 will precede the Last Judgment.

This will be "the hour when all who are in the tombs will hear [the Son of man's] voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment."622

Then Christ will come "in his glory, and all the angels with him .... Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.... And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."623

1039 In the presence of Christ, who is Truth itself, the truth of each man's relationship with God will be laid bare.624

The Last Judgment will reveal even to its furthest consequences the good each person has done or failed to do during his earthly life:

All that the wicked do is recorded, and they do not know. When "our God comes, he does not keep silence.". . . he will turn towards those at his left hand: . . . "

I placed my poor little ones on earth for you. I as their head was seated in heaven at the right hand of my Father - but on earth my members were suffering, my members on earth were in need.

If you gave anything to my members, what you gave would reach their Head.

Would that you had known that my little ones were in need when I placed them on earth for you and appointed them your stewards to bring your good works into my treasury.

But you have placed nothing in their hands; therefore you have found nothing in my presence.

1040 The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming.

Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history.

We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end.

The Last Judgment will reveal that God's justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God's love is stronger than death.626

1041 The message of the Last Judgment calls men to conversion while God is still giving them "the acceptable time, . . . the day of salvation."627

It inspires a holy fear of God and commits them to the justice of the Kingdom of God. It proclaims the "blessed hope" of the Lord's return, when he will come "to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at in all who have believed."628

Catechism of the Catholic Church

January 12, 2010 3:31 AM  
Blogger Diane said...


September 09, 2010 9:34 PM  

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