Smells Like Duluth: The FGA Hermetically Seals the Gospel
A Free Grace friend of mine has recently penned a timely article concerning the recent comments from the Free Grace Alliance. I refer all my guests to this brother's blog to read this masterpiece.
Smells Like Duluth: The FGA Hermetically Seals the Gospel
Also, sister Michele, whom I met for the first time at the recent Grace Evangelical Society National Conference has also written a piece worthy of your attention concerning the same FGA statement.
Comments on FGA disassociation from GES
Please give these articles thorough reads and encourage the others with a comment and your prayers. This is a time where Free Grace Theology most definitely needs your prayers.
I appreciate all you who read here and I look forward to years of growing with you. I have been accused of many things before, some true, some not. But my heart is for Jesus, His grace, His message, and His purposes in the world.
Today is Good Friday, the day that the Lord Jesus Christ took upon Himself my sins, from the day of my birth until the day of my death, and equally for yours! I am not a perfect man, nor will I ever stand before you as such until the Lord comes. This debate between Free Grace fellows has been taxing and difficult for me and others to bear. I have, and will continue to, make mistakes that testify to my frailty, humanity, and sin nature. I thank my God that I have you all here to love me in spite of my flaws. I appreciate all of your encouragement, and I moreso appreciate your forgiveness.
Satan wishes to suppress our message and divide us. Whatever the future brings, let us be men and women of grace and stand united against a world in opposition to the grace that was brought to us through the merits of the death of Jesus Christ. Sisters and brothers, follow my example of humbly seeking forgiveness, endeavoring for peace and truth, and keeping our eyes fixed upon Jesus, who died to pay the penalty for our sins, and rose again victorious over death on the third day.
I am a flawed Free Grace theology host. Yet the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses men from all sin as I seek to walk in the light as He is in the light. Today, on Good Friday, I wish you all to enjoy the benefits of our crucified Savior, to basque in His love, His grace, and His redemption.
with love and care,
Antonio da Rosa
Smells Like Duluth: The FGA Hermetically Seals the Gospel
Also, sister Michele, whom I met for the first time at the recent Grace Evangelical Society National Conference has also written a piece worthy of your attention concerning the same FGA statement.
Comments on FGA disassociation from GES
Please give these articles thorough reads and encourage the others with a comment and your prayers. This is a time where Free Grace Theology most definitely needs your prayers.
I appreciate all you who read here and I look forward to years of growing with you. I have been accused of many things before, some true, some not. But my heart is for Jesus, His grace, His message, and His purposes in the world.
Today is Good Friday, the day that the Lord Jesus Christ took upon Himself my sins, from the day of my birth until the day of my death, and equally for yours! I am not a perfect man, nor will I ever stand before you as such until the Lord comes. This debate between Free Grace fellows has been taxing and difficult for me and others to bear. I have, and will continue to, make mistakes that testify to my frailty, humanity, and sin nature. I thank my God that I have you all here to love me in spite of my flaws. I appreciate all of your encouragement, and I moreso appreciate your forgiveness.
Satan wishes to suppress our message and divide us. Whatever the future brings, let us be men and women of grace and stand united against a world in opposition to the grace that was brought to us through the merits of the death of Jesus Christ. Sisters and brothers, follow my example of humbly seeking forgiveness, endeavoring for peace and truth, and keeping our eyes fixed upon Jesus, who died to pay the penalty for our sins, and rose again victorious over death on the third day.
I am a flawed Free Grace theology host. Yet the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses men from all sin as I seek to walk in the light as He is in the light. Today, on Good Friday, I wish you all to enjoy the benefits of our crucified Savior, to basque in His love, His grace, and His redemption.
with love and care,
Antonio da Rosa
posted by Antonio at 5:39 PM
26 Comments:
Antonio, our friend,
Both I and my husband, Dale, are so thankful for your heart and friendship. We too are flawed free grace people whom the Lord loves and died for. We too are so thankful for His love and forgiveness. You said everything so well. Thank you for your words, your actions, and for reaching out to all of us in love. How we thank God for you!!! We look forward to your continued articles, and we well continue to be Bereans, trusting the Lord to open our eyes to truth and protect us from error.
We are so thankful that God brought you into our path.
With much love because of Jesus,
Diane (for Dale, too)
We do love you Antonio, and the Lord Jesus loves you.
" For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your heart through faith; that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the width and length and depth and height---to know the love of Christ which passes knowledge; that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.
Now to Him who is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that works in us, to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen"
Gary O Edmonson
Antonio,
It's good that you yet again admit your frailty here. It would be helpful to those who seek to pray for you, and stand with you if you were more specific. Seeing as the fruit of your frailty that most would be aware of is very public, I would suggest that a very public personal denouncement of the same would be helpful in restoration and true fellowship.
It would most assuredly help the weaker brethren in their growth.
Since you admit your frailty then will you not consider the Scriptures what they plainly say? Why is truth portrayed as etherel here? Can we not simply read what the Gospel is in Scripture? We can indeed! Can we not read it knowing that it came directly from Christ to us through His sent Apostle? We an indeed! Can we not rest in full assurance that Scripture is true and every man is a liar? Again, yes we can indeed!
Let us then refrain from unprofitable negotiations with truth and simply read and accept it.
We are told exactly what the Gospel is in 1 Cor 15:1-11. I can read the Gospel that saves right out of Scripture and so can you, if you but would.
Kev
Oh bro. Antonio. I'm right there with you in being flawed, terribly so. I am so thankful that my Lord Jesus died & rose again for me! It's my only hope but a sure & certain one, the only one! Praise God & thank Him for eternal salvation in Christ.
Dear Friends,
This song expresses my heart this Easter week-end. I find myself going around my house singing it.
May you all have a blessed Easter!
My Tribute
Lyrics by Andrae Crouch
Verse:
How can I say thanks for the things You have done for me?
Things so undeserved, yet You gave to prove Your love for me;
the voices of a million angels
could not express my gratitude.
All that I am and ever hope to be,
I owe it all to Thee.
Chorus 1:
To God be the glory,
to God be the glory,
to God be the glory
for the things He has done.
Chorus 2:
With His blood He has saved me,
with His power He has raised me;
to God be the glory
for the things He has done.
Bridge:
Just let me live my life,
let it pleasing, Lord to Thee,
and if I gain any praise,
let it go to Calvary.
Chorus 2:
With His blood He has saved me,
with His power He has raised me;
to God be the glory
for the things He has done.
Hey we all under the blood brother :)
I just read the new "Grace In Focus" wonderful!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Witnessing to Evangelicals, who would have ever believed that :)Ha!Ha! Just 70% believe in a faith&works salvation to get to heaven :(
And Ken Neff a former Mormon proved what you have been saying all along :)
Hang-in there brother because your reward is great :) in my humble opinion . . . heeheeeee
alvin :) Rejoice because your name is written in heaven :)
Thank you, Antonio, for linking to and praising my post -though "masterpeice" might be bit over the top! I'm getting my highest traffic ever, which is nice.
I have to say, your friends are kind and generous people. Yes, the grace of God should bring out the best in His people, and it often does!
Kev said:
We are told exactly what the Gospel is in 1 Cor 15:1-11. I can read the Gospel that saves right out of Scripture and so can you, if you but would.
Kev it's not gift language, nothing about the gift of eternal life, that's because it's written to believers that already have life. And the salvation there is conditioned on holding fast. That is having to do with sanctification truth and being healthy at the bema.
I can see that and I'm not even smart :)
alvin :)
We love ya, Antonio.
Keep on keeping on, 'cause you are appreciated.
Hi Antonio,
You wrote:
I thank my God that I have you all here to love me in spite of my flaws.
And you are. Indeed I gulp thinking how much *I* desire brothers and sisters in Christ to bear with mine! (exclamation point, tear in the eye!)
:D
I know I have a long way to figure out the gospel but somehow you put up with that, which is cool. And I hung on every word of your two sessions at the conference. I'm very fortunate to have been able to be there.
This evening I imagine knowing a married Christian couple who have legally separated. And then going to one or the other, for marriage counseling. It seems the same thing for free grace now. Should people come to us to be corrected concerning the gospel? Yeah, maybe I might still get some quality advice on marriage from the separated chaps, but the likelihood is less. The witness has been compromised, in a measure.
This evening at my blog I posted in that same thread, another comment along this line. Let me know your reaction.
You are a gifted teacher.
Your sister,
Michele
Alvin, maybe the Apostle can clear it up for you.
Vs 1 & 2 "I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved"
this is the Gospel preached, and received... and by which they are saved. Seems remarkably clear to me. Thankfully I don't have to be any smarter than you to read it.
Vs 11 "Therefore, whether it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed."
All the Apostles preached this message, and it saved those who believed it.
I don't know what is not a "gift" about having life come from what Christ has done. Sounds like "gift language" to me.
Interestingly enough, Paul's purpose is to correct wrong influence on these believers. Yet he does it by reminding them of the Gospel they received. He's not teaching believers to be sanctified, he's reminding believers of how they got their salvation.
Again, thankfully you don't have to be that smart to read it.
Antonio, I responded in kind to what Alvin posted. Since you allowed his post, I believe you should allow this response. It was not my intention to be abusive to the fellow.
Kev
Hi Keven
I took a peek at your blog a couple days ago, and I see we do hold some things in common your stand against Calvinism. I don’t expect to change your mind on this subject, but if there is someone who is looking in and is open I would suggest these points.
Keven said:
I don't know what is not a "gift" about having life come from what Christ has done. Sounds like "gift language" to me.Keven here is the part I would key in on: by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word I preached to you
This salvation that Paul is talking about is conditioned on holding fast, that’s something YOU must do. The gift of eternal life is received at a point in time, and Jesus said to the women at the well all it took was ONE drink not keep on drinking.
And the other terminology used passing from death to life or being born again happens at a point in time. Holding on has nothing to do with the gift of eternal life, so it’s talking about a salvation that is contingent “IF” YOU HOLD FAST.
And we know it’s not our faith that saves us it’s the object of our faith the Christ, and we know He never changes. Even if we lose our faith He remains faithful.
So I come to the conclusion since Paul is talking to believers who already have passed from death to life, so they have the free gift of eternal life. So this salvation Paul is talking about is NOT a gift but must have the believers ongoing participation to bring about :)
Alvin :)
Hi Antonio, I mentioned Ken Neff a former Mormon on my earlier post. I would like to post just a portion of his article which speaks to this issue:
I think Ken Neff has summed up nicely what saving faith is and how it pertains to the on-going debate over content-of-faith that must be believed.
Evidence That Can Lead to Saving Faith Is Not the Object of Saving FaithThe “content-of-faith” terminology is, in fact, a misnomer.
Faith is only a persuasion. Faith is merely a realization of the truthfulness of a proposition that is proven by evidence.
Evidence, therefore, is the basis of faith. Something must convince us that a claim is true (even if it’s simply the trustworthiness of the person making the claim).
What particular evidences concerning Jesus must be believed in order to be saved?
The “legalistic-gospel proponents argue the evidence that must be believed concerns Jesus, His work, and His promise of eternal life—though they have at least four different lists; while “crossless-gospel” proponents argue it doesn’t really matter what evidence convinces a person, but that anyone who believes in Jesus has eternal life. (Grace In Focus March/April 2009). Emphasis mine
Note: by the way this man is a ex-Mormon who believed all the doctrine on their list except faith in Jesus alone to save him :)
Hello Alvin,
Just a quick note, it's "Kevin" lol.. not that I'm offended it's just bizarre to read "Keven." :)
You said This salvation that Paul is talking about is conditioned on holding fast, that’s something YOU must do. The gift of eternal life is received at a point in time, and Jesus said to the women at the well all it took was ONE drink not keep on drinking.Unfortunately for many in the Free Grace camp, we are all too often influenced by the Lordship Camp. Holding fast doesn't mean "keeping going."
I would link you to an article at On My Walk entitled "Proof-Texting The Gospel" but I wouldn't appreciate others linking at my blog so I won't here. In that post I show how Paul proves Eternal Security right in his presentation of the Gospel.
He's saying if you still believe what I say, not as a condition for that Salvation but as a point of reference for the full discussion. He's correcting the Corinthians about the resurrection. They had been told there is none, and were coming to believe that. 1 Cor 15:12-13 shows this.
He's saying "if you still believe anything I told you" in effect. He addresses these people as saved Christians because they had received the Gospel he preached to them before. NOW they were in error and he was correcting them based on what he had preached to them before.
This is also what the "unless you believed in vain" bit is about. He's not saying that their belief might not have been "strong" or "good" enough, he's saying that it would be in vain if it were not true - ref the rest of the chapter.
There really isn't room to cover all of this in a comment. I'm sure Antonio would not appreciate having to read a book of a post in order to approve it for posting under moderation.
Paul is not talking about "on going participation" he's telling them they really do have a true hope in the Resurrection because they believed the Gospel that saves.
Thus.... just like he says at the beginning this IS the Gospel of Jesus Christ that if received gives Eternal Salvation in Christ Jesus. He also confirms this is the very same Gospel that every Apostle preached. 1 Cor 15:1-11.
Hope this helps,
Kev
This comment has been removed by the author.
Hi Kevin
Sorry about spelling your name wrong :)
Kevin, Paul preached the same Gospel as Jesus no body changed it. The death burial and resurrection being the eighth sign that people might believe that Jesus is the Christ and have life in His name. Paul just as John knew that anyone believing that Jesus was the Christ was born of God (1 John 5:1a). And Paul believed in Jesus FOR everlasting life (1 Tim 1:16). Paul was a blasphemer but did it in ignorance, the eighth sign showed how Jesus came to save sinners in which Paul said he was chief. But it was only as Paul was believing in Jesus FOR everlasting life that he was believing in Him as the Christ in the Johannian sense (John 11:25-27; 20:31; 1 John 5:1a).
These ones at Corinth were like the ones in Galatia who had believed a lie. If they kept going down that road their faith would be ship wreaked. In order to be delivered they would have to see themselves dead in Christ and raised up with Him to live unto God. If Christ was not raised their faith was in vain and they were still in their sins. Just as the Galatians had fallen from grace in looking to their works these Corinthians could not look to Christ lifted up if He did not rise. Just as the Galatians the Gospel concerned not only justification truth but sanctification truth. But it is not teaching how one is born again or Paul would have said something about believing in Jesus FOR eternal life which he was the pattern :)
The living water is the same no one added to it, anyone who believes in Jesus for His gift of life is born of God . . . . . and that my friend you can take to the bank :)
Kevin your comment:
Unfortunately for many in the Free Grace camp, we are all too often influenced by the Lordship Camp. Holding fast doesn't mean "keeping going."Kevin, Antonio explained to Jim at an earlier post that beleiving in Jesus for eternal life is faith in a single proposition. John 5:24 is clear that the one who has believed has passed from death to life and will not come into a judgment that will determine their eternal destiny. So in that sense the Corinthians are saved. The abiding results of that initial faith are on-going in the sense that we stand on that truth that is how we overcome the world because Jesus overcame the world. But the conditional aspect in this verse includes on-going linar faith which does not save us from hell but from a wasted life. For Paul went on to say "and His grace toward me was not in vain; but I labored more abundantly than they all, yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me ( 1 Cor 15:10). Kevin there are some I'm sure who will believe in Jesus for His gift of life but will not chose to participate with Him in discipleship, so in that sense God's grace toward them will be in vain in this life because they will chose to keep their life.
Hi Alvin,
Unfortunately Paul doesn't agree with you, though he surely does agree with Christ.
As Brother Lybrand pointed out in his open letter, Paul also defines the Gospel that if received brings Eternal Salvation in 1 Cor 1:17-25
You are correct in saying that Paul preached the same Gospel that Jesus preached. In fact it is the same Gospel preached from Genesis, through to Revelation. The Lamb of God slain on our behalf.
Progressive revelation has filled in details, like when, where, His Name, and such but the requirement that had to be met has been known since the very first sin.
There is salvation in nothing else.
You can claim that Paul was giving a Gospel of Sanctification, however that does not fit the language, or the context of 1 Cor 15.
Jesus preached the very same Gospel in John 3. John's purpose in writing his letter was to show the Gospel so that we would believe Jesus is the Son of God, and the Christ and believing this we would have eternal life.
Kev
You said:
As Brother Lybrand pointed out in his open letter, Paul also defines the Gospel that if received brings Eternal Salvation in 1 Cor 1:17-25
Kevin, I’m not denying that the gospel that Paul preached can bring life. Anyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God in the Johannian sense (1 John 5:1a). But the Gospel that Paul preached was broader then just how a person can have life. The Gospel included justification truth and sanctification truth (Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:3).
What I see behind Dr. Lybrand and the FGA is unbelief, this is also why haters of GES and the Bluecollar folks can come together and join hands. Calvinism rejects that Jesus is the Lamb of God that took away the sin of the world (John 1:29). Why they must have the cross as the only way one can be born again is they don’t really believe what Jesus accomplished on the cross, taking away the sin of the world. This is why in the Gospel of John the gift of eternal life Can be taken freely as also is confirmed in Rev 22:17 without any reference to sin. To know God is eternal life, and anyone can come to Jesus as a little child and receive His gift of life (Matt 19: 14 But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”)
It’s the wise and the prudent that God has hidden these truths from, and it is also the wise and the prudent who believe the cross is foolishness so it pleased God by the preaching of the cross.
Alvin you posted this same comment at Fred's blog.
I answered you there.
Kev
“For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ be made of none effect.”
Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.”1 Cor 18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:
“ I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.”
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
Isaiah 29:14
Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.
Matthew 11: 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast REVEALED them unto babes. 26Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that HEARTH say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
A babe has ears to hear and can simply take Jesus at His promise of life. And a babe will not reject the light of the cross because it makes perfect sense and shows the love of God and how He was able to give the gift of life freely by giving up His own life :)
To- Bob Wilkin, Stephen Lewis, John Niemela, Bob Bryant, Rene Lopez, Gary (goe), Alvin, agent4him, Michele, Rose & all GES Crossless gospel people:
On April 23 Kev asked Antonio da Rosa this question,
“Can a person be Eternally Saved while at the moment of Salvation deny or not know that Jesus is God, that He died for the person's personal sins on the Cross, that He was raised from the dead on the third day?
Antonio (speaking on behalf of the GES Crossless Gospel) answered Kev’s question this way,
“Yes, a person can…one could (consciously) deny the death and resurrection of Christ and still at that moment place His sole faith and reliance upon Jesus to guarantee his eternal destiny?”
Do you GES people agree with Antonio da Rosa, speaking on behalf of the GES interpretation of the Gospel, clearly affirmed he believes a lost man can consciously deny the deity of Christ, His death and/or resurrection, but still be born again?
LM
Dear Lou:
I think your reeeeaallly reeeaching to make your poiiintt. The question you ask assaults our sense of logic and fairness, so we are supposed to answer "of course not", or else have our integrity called into question. If Hitler (and who knows if he did or did not) repented and believed in Jesus (Cross and all) in between his last breath and actual death, was he saved?
Kind of assaults the senses don't it. I propose that kevs question is hyperbole turned hypothesis to "prove" our radicalness.
I'll bite: Yes! YES IF A person consciously denied everything else about Jesus Christ, yet believed that Jesus Christ had the power, authority and williness to grant that person everlasting life, then that person would be saved.
btw What would convince that person of the later while he was convinced the former was impossible, is what assaults my senses, but whatever blows your skirt.
Duane
Its really good to be at this place thru br. Matthew of Shoes Off at the Door, Please. So happy to be here again to read more of you.
Thanks for sharing
Philip Verghese 'Ariel' this.http://knol.google.com/k/p-v-ariel/-/12c8mwhnhltu7/0
To- Bob Wilkin, Stephen Lewis, John Niemela, Bob Bryant, Rene Lopez, Gary (goe), Alvin, agent4him, Michele, Rose & all GES Crossless gospel people:
On April 23 Kev asked Antonio da Rosa this question,
“Can a person be Eternally Saved while at the moment of Salvation deny or not know that Jesus is God, that He died for the person's personal sins on the Cross, that He was raised from the dead on the third day?
Antonio (speaking on behalf of the GES Crossless Gospel) answered Kev’s question this way,
“Yes, a person can…one could (consciously) deny the death and resurrection of Christ and still at that moment place His sole faith and reliance upon Jesus to guarantee his eternal destiny?”
Do you GES people agree with Antonio da Rosa, speaking on behalf of the GES interpretation of the Gospel, clearly affirmed he believes a lost man can consciously deny the deity of Christ, His death and/or resurrection, but still be born again?
LM
April 24, 2009 4:52 AM.
Alvin:
Yes!!!! The living water is offered to everyone to take freely (see Rev 22:17). The living water is the information that Jesus is the Christ the giver of life (see John 4:10,13-14). The knowledge that Jesus is the Christ is given by revelation from the Father (see Matt 16:16-17). The Father will ONLY reveal this truth to babes (see Luke 10:21). A babe could read John 3:16, and other childlike verses in the Gospel of John and be born of God.
Also this is proven by Peter that he consciously denied the cross and he was a babe (see Matt 16:20-23). This truth was yet to be revealed to Peter and the other disciples proving that this information is not the information necessary to be born of God (see John 20:9; 1 John 5:1; John 4:10,13-14). Also, Peter did not understand when he was born again that Jesus was God (see Matt 8:23-27) proving that this information is not part of the living water.
alvin
It could never be called the crossless gospel because the gospel means "Good News" and WITHOUT THE CROSS THERE WOULD BE NO "GOOD NEWS" because that is HOW God can give the Living Water freely for anyone to take!
alvin
My last two posts I wasn't speaking directly to anyone but just stating what I believe Scripture clearly says.
alvin
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